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Welsh prince named Madoc who may have arrived in America three centuries before Christopher Columbus. Olson said Madoc came from a long line of ancient seafa...
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Comment by Wedi Gadael y Rhwydwaith on January 11, 2009 at 9:36pm
Wikipedia (now apparently respectable!) has this to say (and it does give sources):

Porthmadog, pronounced /ˌpɒrθˈmædɒg/ and known locally as Port [...] The origin of its name is unclear. Some claim that the town is named after its founder Madocks, and indeed historical documents show that Madocks himself referred to the town as "Pentre Gwaelod" (translated roughly into English as "Lower Village"). [...]"

It also mentiones the Madog legend, implying that since documentary evidence is so thin on the ground, a conclusion either way to the origin of the name is next to impossible. (Probably for the best ^^)
Comment by ArthMawr on January 11, 2009 at 8:19pm
Porthmadoc was not named for Prince Madoc but William Madocks, the chap who drained the land upon which it was built
Comment by Neil Hughes on January 9, 2009 at 12:13pm
I've always pronounced it Mado(c) as opposed to Mado(g) so I pronounce the town named for him Porthmadoc.Someone from that area may correct me!.Anyway it's certainly closer than Maydoc.
Comment by Neil Hughes on January 8, 2009 at 7:51am
If as I believe,Madoc was the son of Owain Gwynedd,then he had a Viking grandmother as Owains father,Cynan was married to a viking princess from Dublin.This being the case it could explain Madoc's seamanship and also his awareness of the existence of America,both gleaned from his Viking relatives.
Comment by Ceri Shaw on January 5, 2009 at 5:44pm
A recent article on this topic can be found here:-
Prince Madoc and the Legend of White Indians
This might also be a good time to reprise some recent history. The Madoc Plaque was not blown away by Hurricane Andrew but removed by the Alabama Historical Association for reasons which are stated in one or other of the blogposts referenced below. This led to a n international campaign led by Janice Gattis of the Alabama Welsh Association for its restoration. Others including Dave Parry, ( Chicago Tafia ) Carwyn Edwards ( Welsh League of Arizona ) and myself played a supporting role in galvanising Welsh and American Welsh opinion in support of the campaign. This campaign was ultimately successful...see THIS ARTICLE .
Here is a list of our blogposts ( some of them rather lighthearted and/or mischeivious ) on this topic from the Americymru Blog:- Madoc Plaque Posts on Americymru
And here is the online petition with over 2000 signatures:- Restoration of the Commemorative Welsh Prince Madog Plaque to Mobile Bay
Comment by ArthMawr on January 5, 2009 at 2:55pm
May-Doc? - I have been to Mobile Alabama where the "Mad Dog" river was supposedly named for Mad-doc. There in the genealogy section of the public library they have a file of Madoc related articles. I went to see the plaque only to be told it had been torn down by hurricane Andrew.

I have not read Olsen's book but my two favorite on the subject are Madoc: The Making of a Myth by Prof. Gwyn A. Williams. This book explores both the origin of the legend and it's subsequent influence on different generations of Welsh immigrants to America. Although he gently dispels the chances of the story being based on fact, it is a great exploration of the mindset of Welsh Immigrants and their aspirations for the New World.

Also worth a read is Richard Deacon's Madoc and the Discovery of America. This is a very thorough exploration of all the evidence amassed to support the legend. Deacon seems to want to believe it but, unlike many writer's on the subject, restrains his passion and explores the evidence objectively.
I am a passionate Padouca hunter and admit that the legend inspired my interest in coming to America and I am always delighted to discuss elements of this wonderful and powerful legend.
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Comment by gaabi on March 22, 2012 at 11:21am
Reposted for Bee Richards reposted from "Help Us To Interview Bernard Knight":
Hello Bernard, still in the limelight I see.  I would like to ask you a question about your interest in Madoc Ap Owain Gwynedd.  I appreciate the research which you have done on this subject.  Do you personally believe in the validity of a legend which is shrouded in the mists of time, but which has a high probability of truth.  Hope you are keeping well, Bee Richards
Comment by Ceri Shaw on March 22, 2012 at 10:39am
Please post ALL comments and discussion on the Madoc issue to this group....diolch
Comment by Bob Levoy on March 17, 2011 at 4:36pm
Prince Madoc Ap Owain Gwynnedd is my 20th great grandfather.
Comment by BEE RICHARDS on April 2, 2010 at 4:27am
Hi there Bill, part of my power point presentation is on the Madoc Website which will give you the location of where he was born. near Bettws y Coed, Snowdonia. All the details are given b riefly on that article, coupled with photos. Read the article I wrote as well and log on to Madoc 1170 there is loads of information in an article written by Professor Bernard Knight a world leading authority on Madoc.
Best................................. Bee
Comment by Bill Tillman on April 1, 2010 at 5:44pm
Yes Ceri I will compete at The Night of the Living Bards. Still doing reasearch on Madog's brother, sister and mother and where exactly he lived in Powys.

Comment by Ceri Shaw on April 1, 2010 at 3:34pm
Hi Bill...will you be competing at The Night of the Living Bards? We're drawing up a list of contestants at the moment and I need to keep it updated so that everyone gets their allotted time.

Cofion

Ceri
Comment by BEE RICHARDS on April 1, 2010 at 3:15pm
Bill it sounds marvelous. Let me have a copy when you have finished writing it. I would love to be there to hear you read. But.......... Best......... Bee
Comment by Bill Tillman on April 1, 2010 at 2:40pm
Madog's Water Dragon Adventures, a legend to unfold. The untold story of a Draig-Uisge [water dragon] lady of the sea á Tlan Tia, and Prince Madog's secret friend. Tales for Night of the Living Bards.

Comment by BEE RICHARDS on November 30, 2009 at 5:07am
There is so much circumstantial evidence that it would have been possible for Madoc to have completed such a journey. Why for instance were there soooo many rumours of a dialect of Welsh being spoken? It was physically possible with the wooden boats of the time with such shallow drafts to could negotiate the deep parts of rivers and to be pulled overland to the deeper parts which could be navigated. This was the method used by the Vikings in Europe to navigate the rivers. As Madoc was deemed to have Viking ancestry and to have been educated in matters of the sea, this is possible, surely. Best..... Bee
Comment by mona everett on November 29, 2009 at 8:52pm
I believe!
Comment by BEE RICHARDS on November 29, 2009 at 12:39pm
Hello Peter, can you conclusively prove that Madoc DID NOT visit America. It would be an interesting topic. Best..................... Bee
Comment by peter williams on September 18, 2009 at 12:46pm
Despite some fervent believers in the Madoc legend, I'm still awaiting proof. I dismiss the legend in my books "Wales and the Welsh" and "The Book of Wales." I still have not been struck by ligntning (the curse of Madoc). Peter N.Williams.
Comment by mona everett on September 18, 2009 at 7:09am
For a little diversion and a creative outlet--check out the Three-Word Story Group:
https://americymru.net/community/forum/three-word-story

We are currently working on writing an updated series of Mabinogi tales!

Mona
Comment by Richard Williams-Ellis on August 20, 2009 at 3:48am
Dear Madoc Group Colleagues, I am delighted to have discovered your existence this morning and to have joined you, looking forward to sharing knowledge. I see several among you who I have been in touch with before. For just a little initial background, a few years ago I established "The Prince Madoc Quest Society" here in North Wales, where I live. This has consisted of a few members only, either from Wales or from North America. Besides further research into the Madoc Legend, an ultimate objective would be to recreate the 1170 Voyage of Discovery with a "replica"(?) ship built locally. To explain a certain additional personal interest in his exploits, Prince Madoc is generally believed to have been a half-brother of my ancestor Prince Rhodri ap Owain Gwynedd.....Richard W-E
Comment by Suzie Morris on January 23, 2009 at 5:35am
I've been interested in this story for some time and have finally turned my research in this direction. It's a fascinating story whether true or not, but in my Welsh heart - I'm thinking true!

I've just received some printed matter on the topic......very fascinating.
Comment by Janice on January 21, 2009 at 10:46pm
Thank you for the kind words. It would not have been a success without all the help I received from each of you! I am very proud and pleased to be a part of the Madoc discussion group. The main thing is to continue to talk about Madoc in hopes of reaching more people each day.
Comment by David Alan Edwards on January 21, 2009 at 10:34pm
WOW I need to put more time into the site ,I have read about the Mandan tribe as well and have wanted to learn more about them. Is Madoc part of them ?
Comment by Ceri Shaw on January 21, 2009 at 8:50pm
The Madoc discussion group would like to extend a special welcome to Janice Gattis of the Alabama Welsh Association whose tireless efforts to restore the Madoc Plaque last year led to eventual success. See their website HERE for more details.

Croeso!
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Prince Madoc

Posted by Arthur W. Ketchen on January 22, 2009 at 3:15am in Madoc
Getting back to you with this shot. I have been horrendously busy for several days. You who subscribe to the publication will no doubt shortly see the fruits of same, which had to do with several fronts. Let me comment on the Welsh legacy of America, which Madoc is part of.
The Welsh in America have always been there, whether obviously or implicitly. They have hid in broad daylight. Much of the story of Wales in America is fraught with irony. So with Madoc. The story was seized upon by the Tudors to justify their claims in the New World. It was also(like the story that Native Americans being one of the twelve lost tribes of Israel) used to explain what to European Christians(until the arrival of Darwin and scientific exploration of wider truths about the history of mankind and the world) was the inexplicable-a group of humans(who the US Supreme Court had to declare human) who did not fit in to the Biblical: Asia, Afica, Europe explanation of history. Which Celts(as in the Galatians, and of course the Gauls and British and Irish did).
This is not to say that there might not be a kernel of truth there. It is said that in a riverbend in Kentucky(as I had read some years back) remains were discovered in the ruins of a fort, which were said to be wearing armor with Welsh coats of arms. The Mandan nation(who were decimated by disease) were a Native nation which were said to have Welsh objects and to have some connection in descent.
In New Hampshire by the way, on the grounds of a powwow my wife and I once went to there is a recreated Mandan dwelling. There are many storys from Celtic lands of visits to a new world. St. Brendan, Prince Henry Sinclair, and of course there are the Viking(which also have some Celtic figures in them) chronicles-which have been borne out at places like L'Anse au Meadow.Another Celtic link, and possibly credible one, considering the technical possibility and the context, is that Breton fishermen,of course not wanting the Paris government to know about it, were off the coasts of Maritime Canada in the mid-late 1300s and perhaps even before.
The Welsh history in America continues. I might add this paraphrased from the song by Robin Williamson-Liberty: By The Office Our Thomas Swore. By The Sorrows Our Morgan Bore. By The Office Our Abraham Swore. By The Brunt of Battle General Thomas Bore. That Gave Us Liberty. The quest for liberty,the defense of liberty(noted by Giraldus Cambrensis),and the desire to travel to find liberty, are part of that continuing Welsh story in the New World. Possibly started so long ago by one prince of Gwynedd.


Replies to This Discussion

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Reply by Amanda Kotter on January 28, 2009 at 1:08pm
Thank you for this post. Very interesting! Just when I think I am up on Welsh history...

Amanda
Reply by BEE RICHARDS on February 8, 2009 at 3:31pm
You and me too Amanda Best Bee
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Posted by gaabi on January 21, 2009 at 2:23pm in Madoc
In this discussion I want to post good books on Madoc and links to or pix of documentation.
John Good recommended Ellen Pugh's Brave His Soul: The Story of Prince Madog of Wales and His Discover... which is there on Amazon and I ordered a copy of that.
Ceri recommended Gwyn Williams' Madoc: The Making of a Myth (Oxford Paperbacks)


Replies to This Discussion

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Reply by Fionnchú on January 21, 2009 at 5:44pm
Look up "Absent Minded Prof'" with his Amazon US "So You Want to...Read About" list on "The Legend of the Lost Welsh Colony in America." Richard Deacon's 1966 "Madoc & the Discovery of America" is featured here in the reading list as encouraging its factually grounded Mandan ties. Other titles mentioned incorporate fiction into their reimaginings of what may have transpired. Also link there to an entry for Paul Muldoon's book-length poem "Madoc" and my 2005 Amazon review. Rate my musings on it if you'd like!
See for related claims for pre-Columbian European settlers: The Atlantic Monthly , January 2000. Marc A. Stengel. "The Diffusionists Have Landed" .
Reply by Fionnchú on January 23, 2009 at 12:02pm
Thomas Stephens in 1858 wowed the neo-Druidic establishment and angered the Eisteddfod Fawr Llangollen with his essay that debunked the legend with his "scientific" approach to the tale's foundations. Emyr Humphreys narrates the event well in "The Taliesin Tradition" (144-47, 3rd. ed. 2000). Stephens' essay has been scanned into an internet archive from its 1893 edition; plenty of typos and ugly formatting remain. "The Discovery of America in the Twelfth Century by Prince Madoc ab... .
Reply by Hanes Cymru on February 2, 2009 at 11:19am
Look at the library pages on the intranet at www.bangor.ac.uk . If anything listed there is of any use then let me know and i can copy it up onto the internet. The university has got a massive Welsh library so there should be something there
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Strange Ceri started this discussion

Posted by Dom Stocqueler on January 20, 2009 at 11:42am in Madoc
as I received the following comment on my web site yesterday (I'm sure they don't mind me sharing with you all)
A "Prince of Wales" by Blood
Bezahn (Greetings),
I am a Shawnee Native American who shares blood with a Prince Madog who came to America in 1170. Through an unfortunate confrontation with my early Shawnee people, the Welsh descendents of Madog here in America, and the descendents of his Welsh settlers, became Shawnee Native Americans through no choice of their own. They were our prisoners who were adopted into our tribal group hundreds of years ago. Some are part of the Mandan people in North Dakota today. My particular people are still living near Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, our ancient homeland. However, most are not now aware of their bit of Welsh heritage.
At one time, we spoke Algonkin mixed with Welsh, but after about 1830, we were forbidden to speak either by our white government. So now I don't speak either. They are lost.
For those of you in Wales who still speak your language, please never let it die! Teach your language and your history to your children, or it will be lost too quickly.
Thank you for your bit of history of Wales. I have much to learn about my long ago ancestor, and the history of his country. It seems as though your Welsh people have suffered under the English, as my people have here in North America under the English armies.
Only your people suffered under the English much earlier than my people did.
We fought them in the French and Indian War (1754-1763). And many times before and after that date, as well. We took many of their Yengese (English) scalps. Finally by the mid-1800's, we were being overwhelmed by white settlers; mainly Scots, English and German immigrants to America.
Our government in America today is basically an extension of the English government. Our American government does not treat our Native American people fairly. Never have!
Sadly, the "take-away" from Native Americans never stops! And since the white American government failed to kill all of us, they now refuse to "recognize" who we really are! Sad, indeed! I really believe that our government wishes that we would all just disappear! We won't give them that satisfaction!
I am the last "wisdomkeeper" of our Shawnee-White Madoc people (the keeper of oral history). I am making every effort to put what I know to paper. I am trying to conduct research here in America on this historical anomally, but funding is a real problem. No-one whom I have approached for financial grants will take me serious. Maybe they think me to be crazy, I really don't know?
The Smithsonian and the National Geographic Society (both in Washington, D.C.) don't even respond to my letters to them. Maybe they don't want to give up their belief that Christopher Columbus "discovered" American in 1492, 322 years after Prince Madog and his Welsh settlers stepped ashore in America? Actually, Columbus never laid eyes on the continent of North America; he only "discovered" Haiti, and the fact that he was "lost at sea"! He and his Spaniards did some terrible things to the Native Americans in the islands to the south of us. They almost deliberately exterminated them. He is no hero!
So, lacking funding at the moment, I am "dead in the water" to move forward on research.
Maybe one day in the future, I will be able to visit Wales. It will be a sort of "homecoming" in a way, for myself. For me, such a trip would be the completion of a "circle" that began in 1170 in Wales.
American Indians believe in the "power of the circle"! With my Indian people, the circle is sacred. It is "the beggining and the coming back of all things"! A never-ending circle!
Life is a circle from birth to death to rebirth with the Creator. The seasons are a never-ending circle. The sun, moon and stars, as well as Mother Earth are circles. The wind in it's greatest power, moves in circles.
The birds make their nests in circles, as the Creator has taught them to do. They carry our prayers higher up to the Creator. We wear their feathers to honor them for this kind deed.
The circle is sacred! What goes out, always comes back, even it if takes a while!
Take care my Welsh friends,
Ken Lonewolf / Shawnee-White Madoc Native American
Charlotte, N.C.
USA


Replies to This Discussion
Reply by Amanda Kotter on January 28, 2009 at 1:04pm
Wow, thank you for this interesting post! I had no idea of the connection between The Natives and The Welsh. I have no Native blood in me, but my niece and nephew do. Makes me wonder if there is a connection.

Thanks!
Amanda

p.s. Is it true that the Hopi Tribe never succumbed to the so-called treaties?
Reply by Alison Hill on January 30, 2009 at 8:14pm
Fascinating account which I've heard of many times. An acquaintance of mine at PBS in Denver was looking into this a while back. There is a lot of evidence that Columbus was not the first of course...the Vikings were said to have travelled this far. This person sounds interesting!
Reply by Howard Evans on February 18, 2009 at 7:15pm
Aho Ken, I am a 1st generation Welsh-American living in Montana. I have been adopted by the Crow tribe because of my understanding of the First People's plight. In my opinion, the only available scientific proof of the Welsh influence is through genetics. I would urge you to contact people who are actively engaged in exploring this avenue of scientific study.

Additionally, I would also urge you to write the oral history of the Welsh Connection. Much veracity is lost through the telling and re-telling, but parts of the basis of the story usually remains. Perhaps some elders have stories which have been handed down. Document whatever you feel pertains to this strain of exploration.

Customs and traditions also carry the heritage of the First People and their contact with the "blue eyes." Since the Europeans were a distinct minority, their influence may not be as strong as we might think.

Mostly, don't give up.

Howard
Reply by gaabi on February 18, 2009 at 7:29pm
Wow, Howard that's a GREAT idea! The people at Oxford Ancestors do this kind of testing and they could track it down and show the connection! And if you had that, NO ONE could argue with it, it would be proof! I bet that would be a way to get people to take it seriously and be willing to put money and effort into it.

What do you think Ken? You should get Brian Sycke's book, "Vikings, Saxons and Celts" where he talks about what he does and the DNA analysis he's done in the UK. He founded Oxford Ancestors , did a survey that proved the origin of the peoples of the south sea island nations, mapped the DNA of the UK, contributed to the Ghengis Khan genetic survey in Europe and could really do this. He could identify your DNA and where it came from.
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Prince Madoc, did he or didn't he?

Posted by gaabi on January 20, 2009 at 1:33pm in Madoc
I think on one side people want to think this is true, it sounds good, and on the other side it's discounted out of hand - it sounds ridiculous, there's no evidence to support it, it's a load of fabrication.
My own opinion is sort of open, I haven't seen any persuasive evidence that it's true yet but I remember when people didn't believe oral history which said that the Norse had reached the North American continent before Columbus either and that was proven to be incorrect. We have oral history that says that Madoc existed and came here, it's not impossible that it could be true, we'll see what's discovered as time goes by. Oral history has many times later proved to be true.
Here's a veeery interesting blog post on this subject, which also mentions Ken Lonewolf and the discovery of an ancient harbor at the site of Madoc's alleged debarking, Rhos-on-Sea:
http://medievalnews.blogspot.com/2007/07/did-welsh-prince-settled-in-americas.html
Lonewolf, 67, from the Pittsburgh area, believes he is descended from a tribe of Welsh Indians and is working on persuading U.S. authorities to release samples for DNA testing and carbon dating.
'Our last Shawnee leader was named Chief White Madoc; this name must have been passed down for many generations," says Lonewolf. "This was our chief who sold our village to white settlers in the late 1790s. This is not a figment of my imagination, but a matter of county court record dating to the late 1790's or early 1800's.'"
Ken, do you know where we could get that record? I'm hunting online to see if anyone has put it up.
As to the Mandans being descendants of Madoc, no one has ever produced any evidence that the Mandans spoke any Welsh and people who actually met them said they didn't. I haven't met any Mandans or heard their opinions myself.
Below is a weirdly good article on the Mandans on a Slovenia tourism site:
"http://www.turistica-slovenica.eu/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=13&Itemid=35
and quotes Welsh explorer John Evans, who visited and studied the Mandan in 1796, "hoping to find proof that their language contained Welsh words. Evans spent the winter of 1796-97 with the Mandan but found no evidence of any Welsh influence. In July 1797 he wrote to Dr. Samuel Jones 'Thus having explored and charted the Missurie for 1,800 miles and by my Communications with the Indians this side of the Pacific Ocean from 35 to 49 degrees of Latitude, I am able to inform you that there is no such People as the Welsh Indians'[16]."




Replies to This Discussion
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Reply by John Good/Sioni Dda on January 20, 2009 at 2:08pm
John Evans, was said to be an alcoholic in is latter years, who contradicted this statement ("no such People as the Welsh Indians") more than once when in drink. He also worked for the Spanish (?) government for a while, after being jailed as a British spy I believe. Not entirely reliable, especially when you think that Spain apparently paid for his drink and didn't want any other people laying claim to the New World.
I also thought that there were more than thirty words in common between Mandan and Welsh??
I wrote an article for the Desert Shamrock some years ago (linked below). If it's not all true. I hope it's entertaining. Hwyl Sioni Dda.
http://tramormusic.com/articles.html


Reply by gaabi on January 21, 2009 at 2:13pm

Thanks very much for that, John. I found the Ellen Pugh book on Amazon and ordered it. I started a new discussion on Madoc books and we can all add things we find to that. I was a paralegal for years and my bent is documentation, documentation, documentation and credible documentation at that. That's what I always want to find and see for myself.
Reply by Fionnchú on January 20, 2009 at 3:33pm
I'm a newbie to this network, so I will try to tread firmly but politely. I confess decades of research, for academic and personal aims, of Irish investigations but a semi-dormant concurrent interest in Welsh cultural, nationalist, and linguistic connections to Ireland. Now, I am trying to learn more about the Cymric side. Please be gentle with me!
My interests also include medieval British literature and medievalism, thus my curiosity in how Celtic tales get revamped by later storytellers. Madoc's been on the back burner although I've yet to read my copy of Gwyn A. Williams' study; I am halfway through his "When Was Wales," however.
By the way, I've reviewed a couple of titles that are germane. In passing, Emyr Humphreys' "The Taliesin Tradition" brings up Madoc in the American context as a rallying point for Welsh colonization. I posted about TTT on my own blog (see link to my review on my blog URL at my profile) only ten days or so back, and on Amazon US. Humphreys accepts the power of the legend but remains skeptical. If I may say so as a medievalist, a great-grandson of a man killed for his Land League activism for the Fenians-- found drowned in London over a century ago-- and as someone aware of how we moderns make sense or nonsense out of a presumed or real Celtic past, I'd caution romanticists about taking distant rumors and inflating them into what people centuries later want to wish. That's the appeal and the danger of Celtic revivals.
While I remain sympathetic to Ken Lonewolf's claims, I am also sure that he and anybody involved in serious searching of this vexed question about Madoc wants to follow truth and not conjecture. The Mandan-Welsh similarities rumored may be a treacherous foundation, for this tenuous and often coincidental tallying up of soundalikes reminds me of British Israelites who argued that Brit="covenant" and Ish="man" in Hebrew, so voila-- British had a Hebrew origin. Linguists to my recollection deny Mandan-Cymraeg cognates; seekers of alternate paths to wisdom denied by scholars may believe otherwise. As a Celt myself, whatever that revived term means thousands of years on, I acknowledge both a tug of my soul and the restraint of my mind.
Madoc has a tangled context. Iolo Morgannwg's involvement in the publicizing of John Williams' account in 1791 should be noted. He did not always rely on facts, to say the least. Madoc was told to bolster Welsh emigration, it was promoted to counter Catholic colonists and Spanish threats, and it was popularized earlier by John Dee, who coined the term "British Empire," in his support of Welsh backing and co-option of that people and that polity within Elizabethan imperialism. Madoc was used to extend royal power.
I read a few years ago the Irish poet Paul Muldoon's 1990 "Madoc" book-length sequence on Amazon US-- it's as formidable, erudite, and enigmatic as his other verse, I warn you, very loosely based on Robert Southey's 1805 epic. And, just last night, with no idea about this group yet, I was browsing Meic Stephens' "The New Companion to the Literature of Wales" (2nd ed. 1998). I found its entry on "Madoc." Here's the final three sentences, after it relates Madoc's 1858 debunking by Thomas Stephens. This entry seems to strike the right balance between skepticism and possibility; I admit I was surprised by its open-minded tone.
"It was probably a legend concocted in the sixteenth century to counter Spanish claims to the New World and to stress Elizabeth I's rights as heir to the Welsh princes. Yet, bearing in mind the strong Viking connections of the rulers of Gwynedd and the fact that Viking voyages across the Atlantic are accepted as germane, the Madoc story is not wholly incredible. There is no serious navigational argument against it and references in Welsh poetry, the account of William the Minstrel and early Spanish maps can be interpreted to give it credence." (s.v. 476)
P.S. Forgive me for a first post that may repeat earlier comments, but as I happened to find this only last night, I figured I'd leap into the friendly fray. Thanks for your comments in return, and I hope I can learn from this discussion. Hwyl pob ichi.
Reply by Dai Williams on April 9, 2010 at 12:28pm
Well if Madoc was Irish or Scotish, then there would be no question, he would have done it and it would have been bigger and better than Columbus as well. So should we should shout and make it known he did. No question.
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Bezahn (Greetings),My name is Ken Lonewolf of the Shawnee-White Madoc group of Native Americans. As the last "wisdomkeeper" of my people, I carry oral history. My tales point to the 1170 Madog to America, not to an earlier Madog. However, Vikings and Albans (early Scots) may have preceeded the 1170 Madog to America by hundreds of years. My people have tales of Vikings on the Great Lakes here in America. This goes back in time farther than the 1170 Madoc, and these blonde haired white guys weren't Welsh!
My people called them the "Yellowhairs"! There is evidence of them in Newfoundland and Labrador. Read Farley Mowat's books on this subject.My focus is on the 1170 Madog and his Welsh settlers. My Shawnee people had a confrontation with these people sometime in the 1300's on the Spaylaywathepi (Ohio River to you white Europeans). O-Y-O is really our land across that river to the west!We took many prisoners after this battle, mostly women and children. They became Shawnees.DNA wise, I may be a direct descendent of Prince Madog who arrived here in 1170. I believe that I am walking proof that the 1170 Madog arrived in America.Are there any more of we Shawnee-White Madocs left? We hold an annual Lenni-Lenape pow-wow in western Pennsylvania every August. However, we don't identify ourselves as white. We are part of the Shawnee nations.
We ceased being identified with whites a long time ago when they came here to steal all of our land! That's when the brutal fighting began!I do not adhere to the beliefs of Blackett, Wilson and the late Jim Michaels. I respect their opnions, but based on what I know, I cannot agree with them on an earlier Madoc to America.The Snowbird Tsulagis (Cherokees), the wisdomkeepers of their people, only have tales of my 1170 Welsh people.Stories within my tribal group says that we trace to the Welsh captured in about 1300 on the Ohio River. None earlier!I believe that the late Jim Michaels and his followers were looking in all of the wrong places.My Shawnee-White Madoc people have been "hiding in plain sight" in western Pennsylvania all along. The Mandan who share a reservation with the Hidatsa and Arikira people in North Dakota today, are our "blood brothers".
Before we were "run over" by Europeans in the 1700's and 1800's, as well as by our white American government, we shared a common European language with the Mandan people when we met in council in the 1700's, which is fairly recent history.Yes, I would also think that someone in Wales would be interested in the fact that the 1170 Madog, (possibly one of my long ago grandfathers), "discovered" America for the Europeans 322 years before Columbus managed to get himself lost at sea and washed up on shore with the flosam at Haiti, never setting eyes on North America. We Native Americans spit on this foul person's name!British Armies sent against us in the French and Indian War (1754-1763) met us on many battlefields in western Pennsylvania. We defeated every one of their armies.
The worst defeat that they suffered at our hands was at the battle of the Monogahela in 1755. We and the French literally slaughtered them! Score: roughly 29 lost on our side combined, compared to their losses of roughly 1,000. We were the "worst nightmare" of the British and the British-Americans! LOL! My Shawnee 4x great-grandfather, Willenawah (Great Eagle) fought in this engagement, and many more.The "Bloody Nineties" (1790's) was particularly brutal. We defeated two complete fledgling U.S. Armies. We weren't about to submit to these white landgrabbers!Our Shawnee War Chief, Tecumseh, was killed in battle during the War of 1812, in Canada. He was not part Welsh.Funding for research is a real problem. I have requested funding from the Smithsonian, the National Geographic Society and other organizations, but I never receive replies. I can only surmise that they think that I'm crazy.
Oh well! My hometown in Pennsylvania was our last village site. This is a matter of county court record from the 1800's. Not some thousand year old documents or some dusty old myths! Our Chief White Madoc sold this village to white settlers in the early 1800's. He was disgusted with the numbers of whites flooding our lands.He moved away to distance himself from them.Also, be careful when collecting DNA sample from early Native Americans, since my Lenni-Lenape people originated on the Asian continent more than fifty thousand years ago, from the area of present day Persia. We scattered all over the North American continent. And we weren't the only Native American people to do so!
Europeans also migrated from this same area of the Mid-East region into Europe, so there will be some matches as far as DNA is concerned. That does not prove that these early people to America came from Wales with a "King Aurthur or Merlin the Magician"!Plus, we do not appreciate whites digging up our ancestral people! We now have laws forbidding it!I have been involved in putting bones of Native American people obtained from museums back into Mother Earth where they belong! In this matter, I am very militant!For those of you who wish to see a photo of myself in my Shawnee regalia, I am on the cover of a Welsh magazine "Y Gasglwr", whatever that means. It was published sometime in 2007. Sorry, I don't read Welsh. I also appear in the center of the mgazine "Yr Enfys" which I am told means "The Rainbow".
Hope this is correct. It is the Summer 2007 issue.
Ken Lonewolf




































]]> Sun, 14 Feb 2016 23:31:43 +0000 http://americymrunet.jamroomhosting.com/ceri-shaw/group_discuss/136/ken-lonewolf http://americymrunet.jamroomhosting.com/americymru/group_discuss/136
Ken Lonewolf

Posted by Ken Lonewolf on January 20, 2009 at 12:32pm in Madoc
Please do not call my people "Welsh Indians", but refer to my people as Shawnee-White Madoc Native Americans. That is the proper term for us. And please don't call our Mandan brothers in South Dakota "Welsh Indians" either. They may be part Welsh, as we are, but they are Mandan Native Americans. They may have adopted a few Welsh people in the distant past, but they are not Welsh.
Prince Madog may well be one of my long-ago grandfathers, but make no mistake, my Native American heritage is primary. Your Welsh people became Shawnees through no choice of their own. They were captives. My particular Shawnees did not become Welsh people. They became us through adoption.
My people near Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania at one time prior to about 1830 spoke a combination of Algonkin mixed with Welsh, which we called our "white grandmother tongue". We did not use the term "Welsh" for our words, but the European settlers whom we fought in the 1700's in western Pennsylvania told us that some of our words were of the Welsh language.
And these 1700's European settlers were looking at Shawnees who weren't too happy with these white settlers "squatting" on our lands without our permission, most of these squatters being Scots and Germans. We forcibly removed many of them. The warfare with them and the hated Yengese (English) lasted for over sixty years without a break (1754-1814).
We Shawnee-White Madocs were some the "savages" that the British and British-American armies met in battle in 1754-1755 near Pittsburgh, when they came to steal our land. We were their worst nightmare!
They never won a battle fighting against us in the French and Indian War (1754-1763)! British Col. George Washington being one of the many whom we defeated every time he went against us. His Virginians were particular "targets" for my people! Washington personally started this war in 1754 when he came to steal our land in western Pennsylvania. We never forgot who started this warfare, and they were going to pay dearly. Many a dead Englishman had dirt stuffed in his mouth to satisfy his "hunger" for our land.
By the mid-1800's, we were simply being overwhelmed by white Europeans. After the War of 1812, we scattered in the local area. Many of us are still there. No "myth"involved with us!
You can believe these words, or you may dismiss me as some sort of crazy person, that is your choice. However, I am the last "wisdomkeeper" of my Shawnee-White Madoc people, and I carry the oral history of my people.
Take care my Welsh friends,
Ken Lonewolf / M'Weowa-Ni of the Wolf Clan of the Shawnee-White Madoc Native Americans
My e-mail address is: lonewlf99@aol.com


Replies to This Discussion
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Reply by John Good/Sioni Dda on January 20, 2009 at 12:52pm
Thank you / Diolch i chi M'Weowa-Ni / Ken Lonewolf, we will use your name, Shawnee-White Madoc Native Americans, with greater care in the future.
As Welsh-Americans / AmeriCymry we appreciate your sensitivity in this matter and applaud you in your efforts to set history straight! Diolch eto/thanks again, Sioni Dda/John Good
P.S. Are there any recordings of your traditional music? As a musician and Welshman I'm very interested in this area.
Reply by Martin C N Williams on January 20, 2009 at 12:57pm
Hi Ken,
It is good of you to share the history with us and we should never diminish your self and your people by calling you by a name you do not want or deserve. The name Welsh also has a sad history behind it (meaning Foreigner or slave), and was given ironically be invading foreigners, so we should know better and should act accordingly. Maybe we should push the true name for the Welsh people which is Cymru (pronounced Kimree) meaning something like "family".
Please pass on your knowledge so that the oral tradition can persist and people like your self can defend history and truth.
Martin.
Reply by Fionnchú on January 20, 2009 at 3:21pm
The English-born, of Welsh parentage, critic Stephen Knight in "A Hundred Years of Fiction," his study of the past century's Welsh writers in English, comments that we should discourage the use of "Welsh" for the language and promote "Cymraeg." I wonder if this has gained more acceptance? The substitution of "Cymric" as an adjective for "Welsh" never seemed to make it, although people tried this around 150 years ago.
Reply by Martin C N Williams on January 23, 2009 at 9:51am
HI Fionnchu,

Cymraeg is indeed the Welsh word for the language. However, I believe linguists use the word Cymric and I have seen it in use quite frequently. Makes me wander what the Irish word is for their Language. e.g they use the word Gaelic but I do not think that is a Gaelic word. Any one know.
Reply by Fionnchú on January 23, 2009 at 12:29pm
I want to thank both Martin & Tam. A quick return to my question: I wonder if there's headway in reclaming more Celtic terms used in English discourse for "Welsh" identity? Cymru, Cymric, Cymraeg, maybe even the Latinate or geological Cambrian? There's an inherent problem in using the Saesnag terms for one's self-definition, unlike the Irish Celtically-derived counterparts.
Don't want to get off track too far from the Madoc thread, but pedantry makes me clarify that "Goidelic" (cf. "Brythonic" for the other branch of the Celtic languages) is primarily a linguistic and slightly antiquated term. The "Gaelic word" in Irish is not "Goidelic," for that's a coinage from "Gael." In Irish, that is, "Gaeilge," we'd use that particular word for the Irish language.
Often in the diaspora, I find "Gaelic" substituted, but that leads to confusion with "Scots Gaelic," so the adjective tends to be added to distinguish its Irish from its Scots version.
Either usage beats the fusty Hibernian rendering-- dangerously open to punning-- to "Erse," however! There's a tendency to use now "Irish" vs. "Scots Gaelic" it seems. And in Scotland they tend to say more often "the Gaelic" (as in a shorter "a" for "Gallic") vs. Irish usage of the longer "a" sound. ! You can't simply refer linguistically in Gaelic to "Scots" alone-- as that's linked to their venerable version of English there!
Reply by BEE RICHARDS on January 20, 2009 at 3:12pm
Hello Ken, good to hear from you. Glad to know you are still out there. Thought it had gone quiet on Madoc and that this site was a good place to launch discussion on my pet topic. May be some new information will come to light and maybe a lot more people will become acquainted with something which is fascinating and very probably true. Best........ Bee
Reply by BEE RICHARDS on January 23, 2009 at 2:22pm
Hi Ken, going over to see the stone forts and whatever else we can find out in April. Any suggestions????
Best........................ Bee
Reply by Martin C N Williams on January 26, 2009 at 10:09pm
Hi Ken,
Interesting to hear about the Roman sentry stations. North Wales and especially Gwynedd has a long known special relationship with the Romans. As a Prince of Gwynedd and son of Owain, Madoc was descended from the men who drove out the invading Irish (known then as Scotti or pirates). I think this was in the sixth century AD. These men were a mix of Roman descendants, (Romano British), and the Votadini tribe (Roman Name), a great and powerful tribe that originated in what is now East Scotland, but called Gododdin today (pronounced God-Othin I think). They were also accompanied by a horde of Manau Picts. I could go on but I should get to the point. If any else who can correct or elaborate on my previous words please do. So I would say that it is quite possible that Madoc and his followers were well acquantied with such construction.
Another interesting historical fact is that the Votadini built very large forts in Britain such as atTrapain Law (pictures are on the web) and their name literally means the "fort dwellers". So there is a long history of fort building for the people of Gwynedd. The irony today is that they now live in the shadow of Norman-English castles.
Martin.
Reply by BEE RICHARDS on February 8, 2009 at 3:28pm
Hi Ken, thank you so much for the info. i will email you with a more detailed itinerary. Where were the European locations Would be interesting to compare. Bee
Reply by BEE RICHARDS on February 8, 2009 at 3:38pm
Hi Ken, cannot find your email address. My computer was down over Christmas. if you would like to send it to me on my email address which is b.richards83@ntlworld.com I would love to hear from you. Best..................... Bee
Reply by Morgan Hen on January 21, 2009 at 4:50am
The great chief Tecumseh was a Shawnee, was he not? A great defender of the traditional ways of the Shawnee peoples against that of that the whites. I dislike referring to your people as Native Americans or Indians. I understand that Tecumseh fought with the British in the war of 1812.
Reply by Claudio Vincent Williams on January 21, 2009 at 4:15pm
Very interesting Ken, my respects to the Shawnee-White Madoc Native Americans.
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Britanishan

Posted by David John Jones on March 22, 2012 at 4:20am in Madoc
Dear Ken,
I apologise to everyone I am new to this blog procedure, should I continue with this elsewhere, will someone kindly direct me to the “correct” place for this particular discussion?  Further:- Am I now in the correct blog?
Ken, I am of the Ancient “Britons”, Cymru (now known as Welsh) of the “indigenous peoples” of our lands that was called “Britan” or “Britanishan”, which is now called the British Isles. Please note: - I am not a European .  The only people that could have entered into America at the time of the first archeological evidences of implements found in the Americas is at about 20,000 BC, are the “Ancient Britons” who are now called the Welsh Irish Scots and other Roman and Saxon names. Please note: - The Romans and Saxons etc are Europeans who invaded of our Britanishan lands of the “Ancient Britons”; please note:- “Ancient Britons” . I say this because there are proven evidences of this. I am not trying to hijack your history Ken I am providing matters of fact according to the archeological and historical evidences to try to actually support your contention of your original people’s rightful existences in your lands; likewise I am supporting my contentions of my people’s existences in our lands, and as I say who more than possibly landed on the shores of the Americas at about 20,000 BC (what is the ancient name for the Americas?). Whether or not we are related to you Ken is another matter, and given the fact you say you have Welsh DNA then that may be correct. This evidence is explained in my book FOOTPINTS IN THE STONE and at http://www.aptwebsite.toucansurf.com
Best Regards, David J Jones.


Replies to This Discussion

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Reply by Clifton Aduddell on March 27, 2012 at 9:20pm
Solutrean spear points similar to those found in Britain and Europe have been found in the Americas. However, thos of the Americas appear to antedate those of Britain and Europe by about 20,000 years and would imply that contrarily indigenous Americans may have discovered Britain and Europe.
Reply by David John Jones on March 29, 2012 at 4:22am
Hi Clifton,
I am not aware of the evidences of indigenous Americans’ at 520,000 BC; but there is evidence of Ancient Britons’ are Boxgrove man at 500,000 BC; and the Red-Man of Paviland at 30,000 BC on the Gower Peninsula South Wales; where bifacial arrowheads etc were found in abundance here amongst adornments and artifacts made from mammoth bones, including bone needles for making sealskin boats etc. Also the west of Britan (or Britanishan is the ancient names for the British Isles) at this time was closer to North America and crossing would have been quite an easy task in sealskin covered boats. Specific information is in my book called FOOTPRINTS IN THE STONE all backed up with known historical and archeological evidences; see http://www.aptwebsite.toucansurf.com pages 1 to 4 and large picture page. Best regards, David J Jones.
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Evidence Britons Were In TheUS In The 6th CenturyBy Tim MatthewsTMMatthews99@ aol.com www.kingarthur- online.co. uk
It's proof of Prince Madoc in America circa 560," say leading British and US historians.A team of leading independent historians and researchers announced today that Radio Carbon dating evidence, and the discovery of ancient British style artefacts and inscriptions in the American Midwest, provided, "the strongest indications yet" that British explorers, under the Prince Madoc ap Meurig, arrived in the country during the 6th Century and set up colonies there.Research team members have known the location of burial sites of Madoc's close relatives in Wales for some time, it emerged today; they have decided to break their self-imposed silence in order that their research be fully known and understood.
DNA evidence could provide vital new leads, they say.
TRANSATLANTIC EFFORT "We have a mass of remarkable evidence," said British historian Alan Wilson, who has been working with Jim Michael of the Ancient Kentucke Historical Association since 1989. "As experts in ancient British history, we were approached by Jim and visited locations in the Mid West with him," he added.
BAT CREEK MOUND Many of the grave mounds found in the American mid West, including those at Bat Creek, Tennessee, are ancient British in origin and design, Wilson said. Jim Michael added, "the stone tablet found at Bat Creek in 1889 included an inscription written in Coelbren, an ancient British alphabet known and recorded by historians and bards down the ages." Wilson said that his research had brought him into contact with very similar alphabet inscriptions in Britain, Europe and the Middle East. "The components of the alphabet derive from the earliest days of the Khumric (Welsh) people," he added, "and were used along their migration routes to Wales in antiquity."
A MADOC INSCRIPTION Wilson's research partner, Baram A. Blackett, said, "oncewe discovered the cipher for the alphabet in recorded in texts dating to the 1500s we knew we were in business.We have translated many of these inscriptions and they all make perfect sense." Jim Michael commented that the final translation for the Bat Creek tablet was an exciting business, "especially when we knew it read, 'Madoc the ruler he is'."
THE MADOC 'LEGEND 'Some historians have written off the evidence for Prince Madoc, the Welsh Prince who sailed to America circa 562 (AD). "They often give a false date of 1170 and this legend has replaced the facts," added Wilson. "At the moment, there is a small group of wreckers trying to steal our research and to promote this misdating. Luckily, we've done all the groundwork and have a substantial body of evidence in our favour."
ACADEMICS SLOW TO RESPOND "In Britain and America the academics have been slow to respond," said Jim Michael. "There is a theory that there was no European settlement here before Columbus, despite the evidence, but this is for political and theoretical reasons." In the UK, public bodies had, "failed to engage with this vital research effort," added Alan Wilson. "I think they're afraid that an independent group such as ours has made such progress. They prefer to ignore and neglect ancient British history rather than to deal with it. The Welsh people have suffered, and the opportunity to boost the economy, to bring thousands of jobs to Glamorgan and Gwent, where Madoc and his brother Arthur ll ruled, has not been exploited."Public bodies in the US and UK must now start to actively pursue this new evidence. DNA profiling could help identify the human remains found at Bat Creek. "It could well be Madoc himself," said Blackett. "After all, the inscription was found right next to the bones, which are currently housed at the Smithsonian Institute in Washington DC." Wilson, Blackett and their research team know the location of Madoc's close relatives and have made significant archaeological finds at sites nearby. "So we can use Welsh DNA evidence from the graves here, and compare it with the bone fragments in the Smithsonian, " he said. "This would be of massive historical value." It is estimated that up to 20,000 jobs and hundreds of millions in tourism could be an immediate benefit in South Wales, claimed the men."In the American Mid West the results could be very similar," added Jim Michael.
IN BRIEF- Wilson, Blackett, and Jim Michael made the identification of the Bat Creek main tumulus as the likely tomb of Prince Madoc, in January 1990. Michael has been in contact with the Smithsonian with a view to its allowing the bone fragments to be DNA tested.- There are numerous ancient British Coelbren inscriptions in the American mid West.- Skulls found in some US grave mounds are of European-Caucasian origin; they do not include an Inca bone.- There was only one Prince Madoc. He was the brother of King Arthur ll and lived during the 6th Century. This is not in doubt. Ancient British manuscripts and genealogies tell us this.
ENDS."Alan Wilson and Baram Blackett They have been investigating the true history of King Arthur and the Khumric-Welsh dynasty for a total of nearly 70 years. Wilson's interest began in 1956 and Blackett joined him in 1976, when the Arthurian Research Foundation of Great Britain was started.They have written the best-selling The Holy Kingdom (Bantam, 1999) with Adrian Gilbert and self-published underground classics including Arthur, King of Glamorgan and Gwent, Artorius Rex Discovered, Arthur and the Charters of the Kings and Arthur, The War King (a historical novel).The men have lectured extensively in the UK, including Manchester and Jesus Colleges at Oxford University, and Alan Wilson gave the prestigious Bemis Lecture in Boston in 1993. Wilson and Blackett were also commissioned to produce a detailed genealogy of the Bush family by former President George Bush (senior).

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THE MADOC ENIGMA

Posted by BEE RICHARDS on January 21, 2009 at 11:35am in Madoc
Hi Everybody, I am so glad that the presentation of only a little of the Madoc information has started off what could be an extremely lively and informative group. I have read most of the literature (contemporary) on Madoc but became intrigued with the legend introduced to me by Bill Isaac a few years ago - a great proponent of Madoc here in Wales (sadly now deceased). For methe seminal work by Zella Armstrong got me really going. I have tried to read Paul Muldoon's poetic account but frankly it leaves me as wise as I started and finished.
The stone forts are another riddle but follow the lines of medeavil European military architecture, so do paintings of the inhabitants of that country by Caitlin illustrate the use of an extremely similar copy of a coracle and also some of the dwelling houses are similar to those found in Europe. This is why I have entitled my article, which was not very comprehensive just a taster of the large amount of eveidence allbeit circumstantial and unproveable.


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Reply by Morgan Hen on January 21, 2009 at 12:08pm
The Trouble with the whole Madoc story is its lack of pre16th Century evidence. It was said that it was created by the Tudors to boost their claim to the "New World"!

Is there any solid evidence from middle ages about Madoc?
Reply by Neil Hughes on January 21, 2009 at 12:39pm
Owain Gwynedd like most of the Welsh princes of the time was prolific at producing children 'out of wedlock'.Whilst these illegitimate sons had full right of inheritance under Welsh law it is likely that the lesser sons(for want of a better phrase) would keep out of the usual squabbling for power.This may explain why Madoc and his brother Rhirid were not as well documented as their more famous siblings.I mention Rhirid because I have read accounts that he accompanied Madoc on his voyage to the New World.
Reply by Neil Hughes on January 21, 2009 at 12:59pm
Whilst on the subject is there anyone on this site who knows what happened to the MADOC 1170 forum that has disappeared without trace.I used the name Glyndwr(very original) on aforementioned site if anyone can help I would be grateful.
Reply by Ceri Shaw on January 21, 2009 at 1:38pm
Hi Neil...it's still there. See discussion posted in this group below:-

A Note on Previous Forum Discussions of this Topic

We wanted to host a more focused discussion on the Madoc issue. So we closed the four forum discussions linked from the post above and started this group to concentrate the debate in one area of the site. I can reopen those discussions for comments if you wish or if there is anything in those forums you want reposted here it can be cut and pasted. (Note: As of 2015 these threads have been incorporated into the current Madoc Group )
Reply by Neil Hughes on January 21, 2009 at 1:54pm
Diolch Ceri but it wasn't on Americymru it was madoc1170.com started by a guy from S.Wales(Ithink) who had the idea of making a film about Madoc.It ran for quite a while then disappeared into cyberspace.I recall that there where quite a number of Welsh-Americans on the site and was hoping one or two may be on here.
Reply by Ceri Shaw on January 21, 2009 at 1:57pm
Ahhhh right....I wasn't aware of that site. How long ago was it around?
Reply by Neil Hughes on January 21, 2009 at 2:34pm
It ran for a year or two,Ceri,then vanished last year.
Reply by BEE RICHARDS on January 21, 2009 at 1:24pm
Hi there, this seems to be the case. Although his half brother David was married to the half sister of the English King. Southey's poem although only fiction states he came back to Wales and regaled them with tales of the new world he had found. Was the ill fated so called expedition financed by family money with pretensions to Welsh Imperialism?????????????????????????????????? Makes one think
Reply by BEE RICHARDS on January 21, 2009 at 1:27pm
There does not seem to have been any systematic archealogical investigation of the 'StoneForts' that I have read of. if anyone can correct me on this or offer to throw any light on it. That would be wonderful. Best...... Bee
Reply by Fionnchú on January 23, 2009 at 12:57pm
For Morgan Hen's question two days ago: Simple summary from s4c: Madoc: Medieval Evidence? The site also has a brief intro and a look at post-1500 evidence (or its lack).

The Bad Archeology site I've linked to in an earlier post scrutinizes the Welsh-language texts and runes themselves marshalled in favor of Madoc.
Reply by Ned Phillips-Jones on January 21, 2009 at 2:02pm
I've recently been doing some research on this topic. I've looked into reports by Alan Wilson and Baram Blackett (web site: http://www.kingarthurslegacy.com. I also found a scholarly article by Dr. J. Huston McCulloch in which the author details a thorough examination the Bat Creek Stone (on which Wilson and Blacket's Madoc theory relies). The site with the article is www.midwesternepigraphic.org/bat-creek.html. McCulloch concludes that the stone is genuine after comparing marks made since the stone's discovery with the inscriptions on the stone. According to Wilson and Blackett, the inscriptions are in ancient Coelbren and read "Madoc the ruler he is". I attempted to contact Wilson and Blackett through their site to inquire about any recent progress, details of a Coelbren-inscripted sword supposedly found in America that is pictured on their site and DNA research supposedly being performed. I've got no response as of yet (I contacted them a week ago). I'll give updates if new information comes to light.
Reply by Neil Hughes on January 21, 2009 at 2:32pm
Just been on the Wilson and Blackett site,Ned. Absolutely fascinating.Like all celts I am a dreamer and despite conflicting evidence would love the story of Madoc to be true.What a kick in the teeth for the Saes if it was fact.
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Madoc International Research Association

Posted by gaabi on January 20, 2009 at 1:49pm in Madoc
http://www.madocresearch.net/

This site doesn't look finished, there's a forum but annoyingly no documentation is posted there.


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Reply by Neil Perry on April 18, 2010 at 4:50am
Hi I agree the site is not finished Mira (Madoc International Research Society) has just renewed the fee on the website and hopefuly we will have a lot more on it plus a discussion forum in the very near future
Reply by Neil Perry on April 18, 2010 at 5:47am
I'm secretary of MIRA, our President is Professor Bernard Knight MD, BCh, MRCP, FRCPath, DMJ(Path), FHKCPath, FFFMRCP, FRSM(Hon), MD(Hon), DM(Hon), DSc(Hon), PhD(Hon), LLD(Hon) and Barrister of Gray's Inn, London and he has received the CBE from the Queen,as you can see a very learned man.He has written many books but only one on Madoc some 30 years ago.We have researched as much as we are able to find concrete proof of Madoc's epic journey but so far haven't found any.I notice the title of this site as Richard Kimberley's firstly we don't have a Richard Kimberley, we do have an Howard Kimberley as a member, Howard has his own site www.madoc1170.com . We are now attempting to look up the genealogy links between us and America hoping to discover some connection pre-Colombian
Reply by Kathryn Pritchard Gibson on June 22, 2010 at 8:18am
Please could you change the name Richard Kimberley to Howard R. J. Kimberley.
Howard's web site is www.madoc1170.com and he can be contacted by email howard@madoc1170.com

History Channel US have recently made a Documentary 'Who Really Discovered America?'
Part of this tells the story of Madoc ab Owain Gwynedd. It will be screened starting on Tuesday 22nd June 2010.
The story of Madoc ab Owain sailing across the Atlantic from the coast of north Wales in the latter half of the twelfth century has entered folk myth, and there are many later accretions. For instance, Madoc was NOT born in Dolwyddelan Castle; it was built by his nephew Llywelyn Fawr decades later.
What is certain is that the voyage was certainly possible at that time as there was a great tradition of boat building and seamanship along the west coast of Britain.
Reply by gaabi on June 22, 2010 at 12:15pm
Thank you very much for posting this information.
I just removed the name "Richard Kimberley" as Richard Kimberley is totally wrong and apparently this isn't Howard Kimberley's site in the first place, correct? Can't remember where I got the "Richard Kimberley" originally, maybe I got that link from some other site.
Can you tell us what MIRA has found so far, even if it's just oral history or inconclusive? Can you tell us about MIRA itself?
Reply by Kathryn Pritchard Gibson on June 22, 2010 at 1:13pm
I dont personally know what recent information the group MIRA have found. I am not a member but I do know that their motives are genuine and that Professor Bernard Knight is scrupulous in presenting the findings.
I also know that Howard Kimberley has been researching into Madoc for over 20 years, and that he has been involved in the recent History Channel project as an advisor. It is Howard Kimberley's personal research that several others have copied and pasted and are using as their own without crediting him for that fact. Howard genuinely aims to try to find the truth behind the legend of Madoc, and NOT try to invent fictions and jump on the band wagon (as some are clearly doing) to gain financial reward for himself in the process.
The History Channel documentary might in itself open more doors and bring in additional sources of information. It is a fascinating subject.
Reply by gaabi on June 23, 2010 at 12:27pm
Sorry, I was trying to address that to Neil Perry, as he said he was the secretary and I somehow addressed it to you!
I looked at Howard Kimberley's site and it looks very good! There's a page, "evidence" http://www.madoc1170.com/evidence_2.html that gives information and sources and is excellently and academically written, he describes John Dee's contributions dispassionately, not worshipfully, which I very much liked.

I hadn't heard there was a History Channel production, is this something that's already aired? Sorry for asking, I'm googling and I can't find anything on it. Do you know anything else about it? I'd love to see that.
Reply by Kathryn Pritchard Gibson on June 23, 2010 at 1:31pm
The History Channel Documentary "Who Really Discovered America" went out for the first time on June 22nd. Haven't seen it myself yet, but understand that a copy is on its way to Wales. (Expect that the Producers will have tweaked the bare bones of the story to produce something more sensational.) The story of Madoc's voyage is only one part. What it will show is the early communication links by sea which so often gets overlooked. 
Reply by BEE RICHARDS on April 28, 2012 at 10:43am
I wonder who is jumping on the Madoc bandwagon in order to gain monetary advantage.  There is plenty of PUBLIC evidence out there on Madoc;
Reply by John Charles Davies on April 29, 2012 at 7:40am
Sadly there are several individuals who claim to be 'historians' who have simply jumped on what they see as a potentially lucrative bandwagon and tried to make a name for themselves by using the Madoc story for their own ends.  At the opposite end of the scale there are individuals such as Bernard Knight, Howard Kimberley and Kathryn Pritchard Gibson who have sifted through the European prime source evidence for this story in a mediculous, methodical manner, shared their findings freely, and deseve full credit for their efforts.  Others who have not followed  their scholarly, painstaking approach  have  added fictions to fictions and set genuine research back in the process. The Madoc ab Owain Gwynedd story surfaced in the Tudur period when Elizabethan England particularly needed to make a claim to the Americas. There is NO evidence that ithe story existed before that time.
Reply by BEE RICHARDS on April 29, 2012 at 9:35am
There are many people who have researched this subject, in a scholarly and academic fashion.  It is not only a select few who have done this but many people have contributed people like Zella Armstrong, in modern times who wrote a definitive book on the probability that Madoc left Wales.  I have studied the currents eg., the gulf stream, the shipping of the time and coupled with (allegedly) the background of seamanship of the individual it is possible that he got there.  I have visited some of the sites in America where allegedly Madoc and his people are supposed to have settled.  It is quite a possibility.  There is also the school of thought who say that the stone forts, inscribed stones and so on are of prehistoric origin, who knows.
I did leave a powerpoint on the site, and unfortunately some of the slides were omitted, there is one which shows the site just opposite to Dolwyddelan cast of the (alleged) home of Madoc.
Reply by John Charles Davies on April 29, 2012 at 12:10pm
Zella Armstrong's book 'Who Discovered America? the amazing story of Madoc' was published in 1950. Zella's European sources are all Elizabethan and onwards. Nothing whatsoever before that time.These original Elizabethan sources have recently been scrutinised in depth and it has become clear that there is nothing whatsoever to substantiate the story. Inventions grew on inventions from the time that John Dee started the ball rolling in the heady days of Elizabethan Empire building and expansionism, with a specific purpose in mind.  Anyone who has looked into the Madoc story in depth can only conclude that there is not one single shred of European documentary or other evidence prior to the sixteenth century. To claim otherwise sets the genuine study of history back and unfortunately creates a false platform. (Modern scholarship has also proved that the 'Madoc was born at Dolwyddelan' story is also a fiction.)
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